roseembolism: (Getoutta)
roseembolism ([personal profile] roseembolism) wrote2009-06-02 11:27 am

Authoritarian Arcologies?

Arcologies are constantly popping up in the literature of Science Fiction, and there's something about huge, "cities in a building that just seems to appeal to the fannish sensibility.  I've always wondered why.  Well, apart form they're being spectacular, if impractical applications of extreme architecture.




But there's always been something monolithic and extravagant about arcologies that seems to hint at a sort of utopian monomania. In fact, the notion of an entire city in a single, pre-planned building implies a sort of top-down authoritarianism, as opposed to the organic growth that a normal city has.

So oddly enough, it was no surprise to find out that Soleri grew up in fascist Italy.  And multiple critiques  of Arcosanti, Soleri's perpetually-in-construction seed arcology by a former resident, has detailed a structure that denies dissent and critical discussion.  Aside from Dr. Neutopia, sociologist Paul Ray has reported on the lack of workers rights and freedom in Arcosanti.  The needs of the individuals in the community are subjugated to the vision of Soleri, which is odd, considering that Arcologies are supposed to be a better way to live. 

Certainly there seems no element of human scale in Soleri's designs, no scope for individual contributions.  It is also too easy to imagine a place like Hexahedron (above), being divided into the elite in the top half, and the workers in the lower section; the design seems all to  useful for restricting flow of people and items.  Critics like Neutopia have compared the management structure at Arcosanti, to that of China: "based on the age old authoritarian, patriarchal model of command and control of the masses."  Perhaps that's a reason why China seems to be leading the race to build a functioning arcology, and not just their need for low-ecological impact housing.

The larger question here, is whether this is merely a problem with Soleri's particular vision, or whether authoritarian governmental structures go hand-in hand with the idea of arcologies.  And if so, what does it say about the science fiction culture's fascination with the idea?

[identity profile] james-nicoll.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
top-down authoritarianism

Welcome to a major faction within SF.

[identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
True. However, I think that this is only part of the appeal of arcologies. At least for fans, I suspect much of the rest is the idea of never having to go outside.

[identity profile] roseembolism.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 11:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Kind of like living in a mall?

In point of fact, some of the newer mall designs are verging on tiny arcologies as far as the combination of living space and services. Now, if they added manufacturing and farming in there....

[identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 11:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Absolutely. 15 years ago, I remember seeing one of those huge and ugly condo blocks that SoCal is so infamous for built across from a large mall - I figured that the step from there to full-fledged arcology was a very small one.

I suspect that describing an arcology as a huge mall that you live in both provides an excellent description of what it would actually be like, as well as a way to determine who would actually wish to live in such a thing.

[identity profile] racerxmachina.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 12:20 am (UTC)(link)
If the basic function of a community is to buy things and then go home, then I'd buy a condo/mall as an arcology. However, schools, museums and churches, libraries and sports arenas, and concert halls must exist, in order for a society to function healthily, happily, and rationally, so there are many more steps involved than at first blush. A mall-home would be like living in that giant ship in Wall-E. (We have a jogging track?) It would work for some but not well, and not for long.

[identity profile] mindstalk.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 06:01 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, not going outside, or having an inside that's big enough to fake being a more pleasant outside than the real outside. Winters where I am feature not so much snow as ice, so I have Keen Interest. Another appeal is greater walkability, as mentioned -- not just 2D density, but more stuff above and below you; better use of volume. Manhattan and Tokyo already approximate that, but you still have go down and up to switch between buildings. Spokane/Minneapolis skyways between buildings approach a fix to that.

[identity profile] palecur.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Arcologies, to my mind, share the same phase-space as a moored generation-ship. The concepts are not identical but share a number of essentials, in particular that a level of authoritarianism is critical, at least for the 'crew'. The general inhabitants serve the ship's ecosystem by providing a functioning economy, and their behavioral restrictions can be looser.

There's something interesting in here about personal freedom as a function of the scope of the environment. Five people in a lifeboat can afford a sharply limited amount of personal autonomy -- five billion people on a planet a good bit more. Fifty million in a sealed environment? Bit more open question.

[identity profile] racerxmachina.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Vault 66 is America!
mithriltabby: Parodies of Communist art (Meowist Revolution)

[personal profile] mithriltabby 2009-06-02 10:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Arcology thinking stands in opposition to the “a man’s home is his castle” principle. That can take the form of centralized authority, or of “we’re all in this together” cooperation.

I think part of it is that arcologies are an example of the classic “if this goes on” trope in science fiction. We keep building bigger buildings in our cities, and building bigger cities, so it’s natural to ask where that will lead us. Arcologies are one of the tourist attractions along that path, then the ecumenopolis (like Trantor), and then on to the megastructures...

[identity profile] palecur.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 10:25 pm (UTC)(link)
That can take the form of centralized authority, or of “we’re all in this together” cooperation.

Other than PR window dressing, I'm not sure those are distinct concepts.
mithriltabby: Rotating images of gonzo scientific activities (Science!)

[personal profile] mithriltabby 2009-06-02 10:51 pm (UTC)(link)
The former is imposed; the latter requires consensus. It is easy for the latter case to degenerate into the former, particularly when the administrators lose sight of “we’re fucked if we don’t pull together on this” and start thinking more in terms of “this is my chance to make it big”.

[identity profile] roseembolism.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 11:37 pm (UTC)(link)
A big determinant is going to be the robustness of the checks and balances, and other feedback systems. One problem with Utopians and visionary architects is they often don't see the need for such.
mithriltabby: Turing Test extra credit: convince the examiner heṥ a computer (Turing Test)

[personal profile] mithriltabby 2009-06-02 11:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Too true. The visionaries often get caught up in the physical engineering and neglect the social engineering required. Alastair Reynolds has some interesting ideas on the latter end with his Demarchist and Conjoiner societies.

[identity profile] james-nicoll.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
See Radiant City from Mr. X. It has wonderful architecture. Pity it drives the inhabitants insane...

[identity profile] roseembolism.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 04:14 am (UTC)(link)
I was thinking about that myself, though Radient City isn't properly an Arcology.

And this points out another problem with an arcology; the problems will be greater than with a regular city if the contractors are found to be incompetent or corrupt. Imagine getting it completed, to find incompetent construction in the base.

[identity profile] roseembolism.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 10:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, that has given me some ideas. And maybe my recent dealing with the plumbing has put me in the mood to write it.

[identity profile] james-nicoll.livejournal.com 2009-06-04 03:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Carlos Yu had an alternate history in which the target on 9/11 was the arcology in Oath of Fealty. The evacuation of the building didn't go as well as the ones at the WTC.

[identity profile] mindstalk.livejournal.com 2009-06-04 03:50 pm (UTC)(link)
this (http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/20f9c6729f6c65e1/23c0fe37a0ad5a7b?#23c0fe37a0ad5a7b)

[identity profile] roseembolism.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Arcologies are also an extension of the "mixed use" theory of urban design, which uses (among other places) Santana Row as an example. It's also combined with an "ecocity" ideal of sustainable urbanism that reduces the impact on the surrounding area, by reducing the footprint of the city to the point where cars aren't needed. Arcologists talk a lot about "urban sprawl", as if it were a disease.

The end result of course is a place with very high population densities. How pleasant that would be to live in is anybody's guess.
mithriltabby: Serene silver tabby (Existential Threat)

[personal profile] mithriltabby 2009-06-03 12:00 am (UTC)(link)
I usually hear “suburban sprawl” from environmentalists, and they make a number of good points about sustainability, habitat destruction, water usage, and so on. Las Vegas is going to be an interesting case study in water management in a few decades.

I suspect the key to high population densities is going multilevel. There’s only such much street-level crowding people can handle, but if you go with multiple levels with high ceilings, lots of light wells, and good air circulation, you could probably make it fairly pleasant.

One of the big caveats, though, is that we don’t really have a lot of experience in building structures for the long term. In a regular city, you can knock down buildings when the cost of maintenance gets too high for the value you derive from the building, and build something more efficient in its place. How do you do that to an arcology?

[identity profile] roseembolism.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 12:11 am (UTC)(link)
Funny you should ask that question, because my next post is going to think about that.

[identity profile] mindstalk.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 06:02 am (UTC)(link)
One possibility is building just a big enclosure, then building buildings inside of that. Done in a different order is "roofing over a city".
mithriltabby: Escher’s Waterfall (Home)

[personal profile] mithriltabby 2009-06-03 06:29 am (UTC)(link)
At that point one might just treat it as a different kind of exercise in urban planning: put as many services as possible under the streets (water, power, data, subways, package delivery, earth-tube heat exchangers) and then you just hook up your foundations up when you build or renovate a building. Porous concrete to allow water to get into the aquifers instead of exiting via storm drains, lots of city parks and green roofs to provide extra cooling and avoid the urban heat island effect.

[identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Well said. I vastly prefer the model of cooperation & consensus to either centralized authority or individual autonomy, and I suspect that we're likely to see more of the individual autonomy model begin replaced by one or the other. Suburban & exurb-focused (shudder) futurists notwithstanding, it definitely looks like the future of the human species is in cities, and as cities get larger we may not end up with arcologies (I suspect that we won't) but social models based on individual autonomy work poorly in cities with 10s of millions of inhabitants, especially since it looks fairly clear that LA will not be the model of such cities.
mithriltabby: Adam Smith with caption “Invisible Hand” (Economics)

[personal profile] mithriltabby 2009-06-03 12:09 am (UTC)(link)
The term “social contract” may come into vogue when we get into enough of a resource crunch that autonomy is overly expensive and we want to avoid authoritarianism. Come up with a well-defined set of responsibilities and make it clear that once you’ve met yours, everything else is up to you.

[identity profile] racerxmachina.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 10:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I would caution against taking these critiques as canon about the problems existing in Arcosanti, though, no doubt, there are some, as there are with any planned community. Considering that all these critiques are housed on the same website, and have the style and tone of being written by the same person, it seems to me like a concerted hate-on rather than an independent, unbiased analysis of the way the arcology is run. I would, therefore, like to see articles from other online or print sources examining on the social/architectural environment of Arcosanti, to get a broader, more realistic picture of what works and what doesn't.

I observed that the use of the word fascist/fascism in the essay by the former resident is often used as an inflammatory remark, rather than an actual descriptor of the socio-political structure used in Italy during Soleri's time there. No concrete examples of how fascism actually functioned are given to illustrate the author's opinion of Soleri's methodology and how it is totalitarian and fascist.

An example of "fascism" cited in the former resident's critique, in which Soleri expected women to take their children to work with them as was done in "fascist" Italy, seems to me to be less a question of fascism and more a situation that arose from Soleri's living in Turin, an urban area, with no set social structure for taking care of children during wartime, when the men were off to fight and the women went to the factories. Italian cities do not tend to have the agrarian family structure set in place (China, parts of Africa) wherein the parents work while the grandparents watch the small children full-time. No childcare provision was given, in Soleri's experience, because he grew up in an urban, male-dominated culture with strict expectations that women raise their own children, and no real back-up plan in case they couldn't-- it has little to do with fascism.

Also, I shall now step off my nerdbox and somewhat rudely submit that anyone who calls themselves Doctress Neutopia may wish to loosen their hemp shorts a smidge.

[identity profile] palecur.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 10:28 pm (UTC)(link)
laughs Doctress Neutopia's still around? She was a classic Usenet crank in the olden days. Lovolution! Massgasm!

[identity profile] racerxmachina.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 10:34 pm (UTC)(link)
All the articles cited in [livejournal.com profile] roseembolism's post are from lovolution.com

Massgasm? Good heavens, we'd better put tarp down!
Edited 2009-06-02 22:34 (UTC)

[identity profile] roseembolism.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 12:08 am (UTC)(link)
*sigh* here's a few more. Not from Neutropia.

Recycling Arcosanti

Paolo Soleri

Soleri's Experiment

None of which are as harsh as neutopia, but well, she lived there. And has an axe to grind.

[identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 12:00 am (UTC)(link)
*blinks* I hadn't notice the author, I too remember Doctress Neutopia. I supposed that one of the lessons of the internet is that cranks never truly go away.

[identity profile] roseembolism.livejournal.com 2009-06-02 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree that the statements of fascism are overused by Dr. Neutropia, and that former members of a charismatic organization tend to have axes to grind. I actually did look up other sources, a few of which tended to confirm the authoritarian aspects of Arcosanti, and others which were more in the nature of "Look at these True Believers out in the desert, poor sods". I honestly should put those articles in.

You do make an interesting point about Soleri's experience with women and childcare. Of course this also points out the problems with relying on a singular viewpoint, and the problems that may arise when an architect's vision is out of date. In fact, that may be as big a problem as the social dynamics; imagine a structure the size of Hexahedron needing to be retrofitted.

And well, as far as the name, she got it back during a younger age of the internet. A lot of us did things we weren't proud of back then, like get associated with a particular handle. Of course she's also obviously a utopianist, and has some of the same abstract language that Soleri uses. I wonder if its something in the water.

[identity profile] racerxmachina.livejournal.com 2009-06-03 12:08 am (UTC)(link)
When I read that the part about "they can take their kids to work, like the women did in Italy", I thought, "if he really believes that, he has never had to take care of a small child, by himself, for a minimum of four hours, in a busy environment where he is expected to execute tasks that are not childcare." It seems like a "psssht, let the women figure it out" solution.

Fascist? Nope. Sexist, possibly ageist? I'm leaning towards that. No structure for childcare or schools is not a good environment for adults or kids.
seawasp: (Default)

[personal profile] seawasp 2009-06-02 11:46 pm (UTC)(link)
To me the appeal of an arcology is obvious. I can go anywhere I want without going outside.

The authoritarian bit seems obviously part of certain aspects of fandom, myself included: if you just had the RIGHT people running things it would be so much better. With us, of course, being the right sort of people.

Pity practice doesn't seem to play well with theory.

Yes and No

(Anonymous) 2009-06-05 05:09 pm (UTC)(link)
All of the comments are well taken, however...

It does not have to be so. A structure like the one shown can function as a Armature (areas, volumes, infrastructure) not unlike the “flat” city as it has been for hundreds of years. The individual buildings within this can actually be more varied and individual than any urban environment we have today.

The principle values to be gained are:
1) volume and space, much more of it than the “peanut butter spread” of a typical city.
2) reduction of transportation and utility runs.
3) efficient prefabricated structure.
4) better energy management (volume to skin ratios), etc.
5) dense urban experience with a few minute “drop” to farming, recreational and authentic wilderness areas.

And so on.

I believe that Palo’s concept is weakest in terms of the governance and social systems aspects yet I point out that traditional cities are not immune to the darker aspects of Human misconduct. There is not reason that an Arcology or mega-city has to be such. NYC and many other urban spaces are mega-cities - just poorly design one - mostly.

It is certainly true that the last 25 years of architecture is not encouraging as human scale has all but been obliterated. It is true that a better result will not be accomplished by a top-down, dictatorial result. This is a process issue much broader than architecture itself, however.

I urge that the concept is not thrown out with the bath water. In a world of growing population, weather change, resource competition, this approach may have a place. If done properly and if not promoted as THE solution as there is no such thing.

Up may find the following interesting:
http://www.matttaylor.com/public/4_sf_vertical_housing.htm
http://www.matttaylor.com/public/l_5_interview.htm
http://www.matttaylor.com/public/master_plan.htm
http://www.matttaylor.com/public/xanadu_project.htm
http://www.matttaylor.com/public/monkeyspaw.htm

In any schema for making habitat there are inherent opportunities and risks. the trick is to get the good aspects and eliminate the bad. This is a design process. In complex projects (almost everything) this requires an authentic collaborative design process not just among professionals - among all members of a community and society. we do not have this today.

Matt Taylor